Taking on the CFO post of a pre-IPO unicorn is no small challenge, especially in your first 90 days. But that’s exactly where Chris Kramer, newly named CFO of the cybersecurity startup Axonius, finds himself. In this episode of “Secrets of Rockstar CFOs,” Kramer talks with host Jack McCullough about how he’s preparing for the public offering, how an organization’s culture shifts after an IPO and what he sees as the most important KPIs today.
Listen by clicking below. The Q&A, lightly edited and trimmed for clarity, follows.
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I’m excited about my guest. Chris Kramer is the CFO of Axonius. Axonius is one of the hottest startups in Silicon Valley. Chris, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me.
Happy to have you. I have to admit, I wasn’t familiar with your company until you reached out to me and we started conversing a few weeks ago. A great company, but not necessarily a household name. Can you tell us a little bit about Axonius and what their mission is?
It’s still pretty new. It is a cybersecurity company focused on providing insights and data on all the things that are connected to your network. It provides a platform where the security team or IT team can go and see where are the security exposures that we have in our network. There is nobody else doing what we do. There are other companies doing pieces of it, but this is one consolidated platform. Whether you’re looking at the laptops that are connected or the application, more of like a SaaS management or the mobile devices, this tool will do all of it now in one platform.
That sounds groundbreaking. If I have my facts correct, on your last valuation, you achieved unicorn status. That’s a pretty cool thing. We’ll talk a little bit more about that later, but I want to get the audience to know a little bit about you. I’d love to know where you grew up. I also love asking people what their first job was.
I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, and then found my way out to California with my family. My first job was at Little Caesars, but my first real job was cooking at a restaurant in Santa Cruz. I ran the line for this restaurant, which was very busy. A lot of customers and a lot to manage on that line. That was my first job.
You mentioned Little Caesars. One of my observations from getting to know a lot of CFOs over the years, it feels like one out of three or four of them started in a fast-food restaurant or a pizza place or something like that. It’s a remarkable thing. I also want to ask you to count all of your jobs except the one that you’re in now, because let’s exclude that one. What’s been your favorite job? It can be anything. To give you the right frame of mind, my favorite job was working as a bouncer and a bartender at a bar in Boston years ago. Still better than any job I’ve ever had in my life. What was yours?
It would have to be Okta outside of Axonius. I was there for eight to nine years. The team that I had and the people that I worked with cross-functionally, leadership, it was the product, the market, the IPO. It was a great time to go through that process and I enjoyed everybody I worked with. I’m close with just about everybody.
I did notice that. Ten years as a finance executive in the same company. It’s not unheard of but it is relatively rare in the modern world. I’m guessing maybe in your geography, even a little bit rarer than the rest of the country. I’d love to chat a little about your career journey. We don’t need to touch upon every job, but I know you started with a lot of CFOs. You started at one of the big accounting firms. For me, it was the big eight. How many were there when you started your career?
When I started, it was six.
You were at EY, the Ernst & Young at the time, probably.
EY is where I started and then I moved over to PwC. I was hired by Pricewaterhouse. By the time I started, it was PwC. That was one of the big mergers. I was there for a very short time. It was one year, and then I went to work for one of my clients. Back then, you could do that. I stayed with them as they went public. It was a good experience. Not at the same level, certainly not as Okta or even the one before that. It was a good, exciting experience that internet music was all blowing up literally. It was an exciting time. It was a ridiculous time. The fact that you could go public on what was $99,000 of revenue and $30 million of expense.
$99,000 in revenue and $30 million in expenses. Did you take that company public?
That was a crazy time. You probably were oversubscribed on the offering.
It was ridiculous. At the level I was at, which was a senior analyst, I wasn’t as involved in a lot of the strategy and the real IPO workings, but it was an exciting time to be in the music internet space. That was fun. As I bounced around in accounting roles after that, the next main one was probably Riverbed Technology. There were a few others along the way, but it was all accounting-related, and it was all technical accounting for the most part.
What was different about Riverbed was that I started taking on more of the operations as well. It was operational accounting. It was technical accounting. Following that, I moved into a controller role at a company. We had a board member at Riverbed who was the CEO of this company. I went to work for that company as a controller. That was technical. It was operational and went through the IPO process.
I started at the tail end of that process, so very limited work. The company was operationally unsuccessful. A lot of the pains that that company had, Okta didn’t have. Not to get into too much detail on it, but Okta was fortuitous in the sense that they were able to connect to a handful of key applications to make it worthwhile. That became a much easier sell to do single sign-on. When you know you have Workday plugged in, you have NetSuite and Salesforce, those key applications that most of the companies that you’re going to sell to have, then you suddenly become valuable. You have some sure real value right off the bat. You’re then adding applications or adapters after that, so that works.
Where the company called Cyan prior failed, Okta was able to leverage a very different situation and they were very successful. That’s probably where I learned the most. I was reporting to Bill Losch. He was our CFO, probably the most experienced person in the building at the time. When I started, there were less than 400 employees. By the time I left, there were 6,000. He was a good, open-minded CFO. What I learned from him most was he would rely on his directs to be the experts, to do what they needed to do, and he would simply assist, facilitate and enable so that they could do their jobs the best way possible. I appreciated that.
I’ve worked for what you might call a diminisher or close-minded manager in the past multiple companies. Bill was not that. He created a great culture, even within the CFO org, and then cross-functionally, everybody loved it. It’s just how we treated people, and how we supported people, and that stays with me and probably will forever.
When I wrote the book Secrets of Rockstar CFOs, one thing that came up over and over again as I was getting to know CFOs was they all had a mentor, formal or informal, at some point in their career. It seems like you may have given one away, but I was curious about any mentors that you may have had along the way and what impact they’ve had on you as you’ve grown professionally.
Joseph Howell at EMusic was the CFO. There are some key things that you would naturally expect people to have, especially as a CFO, but not everybody does. From him, I learned honesty, transparency and accountability. Bill Losch was very much the same. He also had a tone from the top, which I thought was great, while the CEO. They both preached the same thing.
“Let us know when there’s an issue so that we can address it. At the same time, you should be coming up with how we’re not going to have that issue again. How do we fix it?” People would feel much more comfortable coming to Bill, and then now to me with these issues because they know that they’re not going to be reprimanded or disciplined or anything like that. It’s like, “Let’s solve the problem, and then let’s build in a process to ensure it doesn’t happen again.”
That’s a great mentor. In your role now, whether by design or not, you’re probably mentoring some earlier career professionals than yourself. Do you take what you learned from those professionals put your imprimatur on it, and then share it with the next generation?
I do. There are a couple of pieces that I do on that. One is constantly engaging with the more junior employees. The reason why I feel remote work is difficult is everybody is a mentor or a mentee. If you’re remote 100 percent and you’re not engaging continually, you’re not providing the same level of leadership that we should. I do engage with my team on a very regular basis. I try to get out to different locations on a regular basis to do the face time and make sure my managers are doing the same.
That’s a great philosophy. You’re right. It is interesting because we were forced into this global experiment about working from home. By and large, it was successful. What I observed is young professionals, even before Covid, were thinking, “I should be able to work from home a little bit, I can be equally productive and more productive.” For the Boomers, and then those of us born right after the end of the Baby Boom, you need to be in the office to form relationships and that kind of thing.
At least in my world, what people came to realize is both sides are right. The young people said, “These veterans had a very valid point that there is a lot of value to the water cooler talk and to the mentoring that can only be done with an in-person relationship.” The more senior people said, “My team didn’t let me down at all. They got more work done.”
It was a fascinating time that both generations came to an agreement on that. Before we get into your role, I’d love to discuss, was there a challenge that you’ve had at some point during your career where you learned a lot that maybe even to this day you look back on and take the lessons from that? Does anything come to mind in that area?
Probably the most recent was at Okta. One of the things that I did and worked with, who is now the CFO, Brett Tighe, was to migrate from or transition from accounting to FP&A. I was looking to round out my career. I knew that was going to take a very painful step of not running all of FP&A, it was going to be a big portion. It was also going to be managing something I had never managed before. While I had exposure to some of the areas and technical operations, because I ran procurement, dealing with Amazon and things like that, it’s not the same. On the HR or people side, recruiting, recruiting capacity, and things I never dealt with before.
It was way outside my wheelhouse. It was a challenge. It was difficult. I know I was frustrated because my wife told me, but it worked. I learned a lot. In the year and a half of doing it, I probably learned more than the prior five years of running accounting. At that point, it was almost running by itself because I had built out this great high-performing team, sophisticated, engaged and experienced. My little edits or changes are not that important, but it’s a job.
That’s the sign of great leadership though. If you do your job well, eventually, it won’t be needed anymore. You can function perfectly well without you. It’s interesting because while it’s becoming more common, it’s still pretty rare that people ascend to the CFO role, both with FP&A and controllership background. There’s value for a CFO to have worked in both.
A few years ago, I made the prediction that the farm system for future CFOs would come from FP&A more than the traditional controller path, which almost every CFO my age at one point was a controller. Not almost everybody, but say 90 percent. Now, there are a lot of ways to get to the role. I won’t concede I was wrong as much as too early, but which do you think helped prepare you for the CFO role, FP&A or controller? Am I right? Is there value to doing both before taking the top job?
If you can do both, yes. If you can’t, FP&A is probably the right course. The reason behind that is you’re going to be working so closely with accounting, you’re going to understand what they do and how they do. That’s important. Cross-functionally, working with the groups, you’re the right-hand person of the CEO. The most important thing for them is to make sure that you understand the model and how we’re going to keep the company on track. That is a lot of business acumen. It’s also relationships and working well with others. I would say FP&A probably preps you the most for it but it’s good to have both.
I can’t imagine someone being successful as a CFO without some competence in accounting and finance beyond FP&A. If I have my facts correct, this is your first time in the CFO job, is that correct?
You’ve only been in it a little over 90 days. Tell me a little about some of your prior experiences and how they prepared you for the first time. You’ve got a CEO and you’ve got a board, but you are running the financial operations and a lot of other things.
Part of it is being comfortable speaking to the executive team, leading discussions, providing input, being persuasive and being confident about your position on whatever it is. It’s really important. 1) It’s because you not only want to get the job done but it may require persuading people to go on your path. 2) You want to instill that confidence so that people feel comfortable with you in the seat to the extent that people can present to the audit committee, work with the board or work with other executive members. That sets you up for success.
I was lucky enough to be in that position at Okta for many years where I was presenting to the audit committee every quarter. I was already working with the executives on various issues, so I felt very comfortable. In the roles that I had, I had to have a lot of coordination with the go-to-market, especially sales. My roles, while they changed over time, I was able to touch just about every area in the company.
That’s so critical to be cross-functional. It wasn’t all that long ago that a lot of times, being a great accountant would get you the CFO role and they weren’t expected to understand the business. It helped if you did, but it wasn’t the first thing that came up in conversations. This person’s a great accountant. There was this saying, “A great CFO can keep the CEO out of jail.” If you do that, anything else is gravy. Hopefully, the job is even a little more sophisticated than that. It sounds like you’re interacting with customers and whatnot. All that is part of the process that gets you ready for the top job in finance.
It’s also about working with the owners, and investors, and then being able to work with banks. If you intend to raise money or potentially do an IPO, there are a lot of meetings with the banks and you need to be able to speak about the business, what you’re doing, where you’re going with it and the financials of the company, at least in a way that you can deliver that information.
One of the most popular white papers I’ve ever written is the first 90 days. Admittedly, it’s not an original idea as much as I’d like to take credit for this brilliant master stroke of a white paper I wrote, a lot of people have done it. Since you just completed yours, what were your first 90 days like? What did you learn during the process? What advice can you give to CFOs and others who soon going to be stepping into a new role?
I lost my controller two weeks after I started. She told me two weeks before I started. I knew it was coming but not a lot of time to prepare for that. What I’d say is to get to know the team, what you have and what the risks are before you start so you know what you’re doing on day one. That’s probably the most important. It’s assessing the team, the environment, the risks of what’s working and what’s not, and then interviewing all of your counterparts and getting their perspective.
It is funny because it’s all about the first 90 days. For lack of a better term, it’s forging alliances and building relationships. Getting to know the players and all of them. It’s your team, it’s the rest of the C-Suite. Maybe it’s the members of the boards of directors, depending upon the company. It’s not all about sitting down and doing a bunch of work. It’s almost like college semesters, typically that’s a little bit more than 90 days. You almost think of your first 90 days as a semester at college. This is your chance to make mistakes and learn and get to know some things. If you screw up at college, your grades suffer. Other than that, there are no real consequences to it, so everything’s a learning opportunity.
Especially coordinating with the CEO, you’re now the right-hand person. You need to understand how he thinks, how he works, what his expectations are, and that you’re fully aligned.
I’m just curious, and I thought you were giving it away, but what was the biggest surprise you had out of the first 90 days? I thought it was losing your controller, but you said she told you during the interview process, so that wouldn’t have been it.
The biggest surprise was learning how to work with the CEO. I met him in the interview process. That went well, but there were some bumps along the way early on on how to deliver information that he could receive well. That was probably the biggest learning. I was learning about the product and the company, meeting the investors, meeting tons of analysts, and understanding where we are. I’d say the biggest thing was learning to coordinate with the CEO. I live in Marin just north of San Francisco. He lives in New York. What I’ve decided to do is instead of going out once a quarter for the board meeting and carving out time to meet with them, I’m flying out every month.
I need the face time and he does as well. I need to build that rapport and relationship.
There was a report. It’s a few years old now, but I’m willing to go on a limb and say it’s still accurate. Accenture did a study of executive leadership dynamics. They concluded that the CEO and the CFO dynamic is the most important across the entire C-Suite. Now, it doesn’t mean that you need to go to each other’s kids’ baptism and bat mitzvahs or be golfing together on the weekends, but there’s got to be a strong relationship, a lot of trust, mutual respect, and by the way, the freedom to disagree with each other. Have you been able to do that in the first 90 days given this bicoastal relationship?
I am going out there a lot more now. I’ll be heading out next weekend. I would say as we’re getting to know each other, I’m pretty strong in my positions. I’m open to what he has to say and get his feedback and his perspective. I feel very confident in a lot of my positions, especially as it relates to finance. For him, it’s getting to know me, getting comfortable and building trust.
That’s what it’s all about. Trust between the top two executives. It’s an exciting company that you joined, but you’re in a hyper-competitive landscape. The expression 800-pound gorillas, there’s probably seven of them in the cybersecurity space, and then there’s also a bunch of these smaller nimble players. You’ve got a David and Goliath to a certain extent. On the other hand, you’re bigger than some of the other guys, even though you’re a relatively young company. How do you establish your brand and put your foot in a hyper-competitive landscape that everybody wants to be in these days?
There is a focus on the marketing side. Brand awareness is an issue. I didn’t know who the company was before I started interviewing. You didn’t hear of the company before either. Yet when we do a pact for a potential customer, we win every time. It’s incredible because nobody is doing what we’re doing as well as we’re doing. Most of the competitors out there are just doing a piece of it. Nobody has this thing all together in one platform that you can see.
If I could show you a graph of the devices that are on the network and the applications that are on the network, and the fact that you can drill down to see what they are, who has access, should they have access, is it in compliance? It’s just endless. The reason I bring this up is, at Okta, we had some incidents, very public but it took months to run them down. We got beaten up because we didn’t communicate with the customers early enough. We just didn’t have the information, so we were reluctant to start releasing what we didn’t know.
As uncomfortable as it is, you have to, because then it looks like you’re hiding stuff when you’re not even trying to hide stuff. Perception trumps reality.
It turned out to be one of our vendors did not have their laptops hardened, and they were not secure. They weren’t following the protocol that is our policy. They were hacked or breached. That was the source of that, but the fact that it took so long. Had we had Axonius as a tool, we would’ve found it much faster. It’s better to have Axonius as a tool and be proactive, identify where the risks are and fix the risks before there’s a breach, that’s ideal. There are so many different uses to Axonius that we haven’t even unlocked yet.
It’s a fascinating space. It’s just going to keep evolving. The bad guys aren’t going to go away. We need all the good guys to keep staying on the cutting edge. It’s a much scarier world in that sense. Axonius is an ultra-hot company with unicorn status. I’ve heard a little bit about potential offerings and maybe we’ll get into that in a moment, but what are some of the other challenges you’re facing with the company? Not only challenges but maybe some opportunities. Probably you have more opportunities than challenges given the groundbreaking nature of the technology.
We’ve had some turnover, but the biggest challenge that we’ve uncovered is the change in the market. From our customers that are rationalizing their spending, and elongated sales cycles, that’s happening certainly more than it did years ago. That’s probably the biggest piece, and then as we are marching towards an IPO, we have to be very focused on some of our more efficiency metrics and how we’re spending our cash.
Before, certainly in Okta’s time, pre-IPO, it was grow and grow. Don’t worry about the spending, just grow. Grow at all costs. It’s a very different environment now. That in itself is a little bit of a challenge where we’ve focused the entire company on being thoughtful about their spending and their hires. That’s probably it. A bit of a challenge, but it’s an opportunity.
One of my members told me, a little bit before Covid-19, but it was in one of those hot IPO cycles. The company was losing money, but it was on the verge of profitability. Bankers were telling them not to become profitable and to find ways to spend more because the revenue was growing faster. The reason is that once you’re profitable the first time, you get measured differently than if you’re not yet profitable. I’m not saying it was bad advice. I don’t know the markets well enough to say that it was bad advice and this person did this for a living, but that struck me as strange advice that somehow growing fast and becoming profitable quickly would be a detriment to your offering price.
Chris, I know you are a classically trained accountant. Probably as good as anyone in the game, but you mentioned other things. What are some of your favorite and most important KPIs that you use when you’re talking to non-accountants about the company’s performance? You can’t talk to non-CPAs about GAP anymore. It’s too arcane for non-accounting professionals.
I wish they would revise the stock comp rules because that continues to be a little bit of a pain. I would say from a KPI standpoint, ARR is king. It’s your run rate on revenue and there’s no more important metric than that. Outside of that, it goes right down to cashflow and ideally free cashflow, because you want to show how you’re burning cash. That is the best measure of profitability. When they say cash is king, they’re correct. It doesn’t care about GAP and it doesn’t care about deferred costs.
Cash is cash. A lot of analysts have moved to look at cashflow and ARR to the extent that you disclose ARR. Not all companies do. Revenue can be a little wonky and can be confusing. When you think about the gap P&L in all the areas, how complicated it can be, what can be hidden or not, and is it telling you about the business? Usually not. It’s not an accurate depiction of the business itself.
Revenue is an opinion, but cash is a fact. I’m going to trademark that if somebody else hasn’t already done so. That isn’t bad.
I hope somebody has done that. That is good.
It has to have been. One thing I also wanted to ask you about, the company has roots in Israel. I believe R&D to this day is still done in Israel. Is that correct?
Your boss is in New York, and perhaps there are other locations too, but what’s that like? It’s a small company, not really, but sort of. What’s it like to have all of those locations when you’re trying to create a common culture and get everybody steering in the same direction?
It is a good thing that we have the CEO’s direct staff dispersed. They’re not all sitting in Israel. That could create an issue where you’d have this limitation of maybe communication and coordination where other companies have had that. There are other Israeli companies in our space that have had real challenges because they have this little bubble of executives sitting in one area, and all the decision-making happens there. That is not the case with Axonius. Axonius has executives primarily in New York, California and of course Tel Aviv. They’re dispersed enough where there’s no nucleus decision-making. We don’t have that, which is great. We do have 40 percent of our employees located in Tel Aviv. Forty percent and all of our engineering and product is in Tel Aviv.
That creates some challenges. Another thing I wanted to ask you on a not personal level, but just for you, in your prior job, you had 10,000 employees approximately. I looked it up on LinkedIn. You have fewer than 1,000 in the current company. That creates all kinds of challenges like workload, culture and others. What’s that transition to be like from what I would consider a big company? Apologies to IBM and companies like that that are a lot bigger, but I consider 10,000 a big company to what I would consider a small, mid-size company. What has that been like for you on a personal level?
It was nostalgic in the sense that that’s how I joined Okta. Okta was less than 400, Axonius is 600. A lot of similarities. The path to IPO is very similar. The executive team is younger for sure, and so is Okta. I’ve seen this picture before, and I’m excited to do it again. This is an exciting time. It’s a great culture. The company is growing fast in a tough environment. When the economy turns and people are buying more and spending more, it’s going to be a rocket ship.
You mentioned the IPO at Okta a couple of times. It’s a financial event. For most companies, it’s the biggest event in their history, other than the formation of the company itself or something like that. Huge event from a financial perspective. It’s also, in many ways, a cultural event particularly for an entrepreneurial company like your own, because you’re all about the entrepreneurial spirit, getting stuff done, just finding and doing it. Yet you’re hoping to be tightly regulated, by the SEC and whatnot. Some things have to change and this is going to be your first time doing this as a CFO. What are some of the challenges you anticipate both financially and culturally?
I would say it is a financing event but it’s also a marketing event. One of the biggest challenges that we had at Okta was selling to customers who wanted to see our financials and didn’t have a lot of comfort that we were going to be around in a year. When you’re a public company, a lot of that goes by the side or the wayside and you don’t have to deal with that. It is much easier for your sales team to sell as a public company than it is as a private company where there are so many questions about your longevity and your viability.
When I think about the culture, it is going to be a change. The toughest thing of all of them was starting to limit some of the things that we would communicate to the employees. Finances and big wins and things like that. Some of that you have to limit once you’re public. You’re protecting them. You’re protecting the company. That’s not ideal. That’s probably one of the bigger cultural shifts. The controls and things like that, you can around that without having an impact.
Our ability to bring products to market now is so rapid and so fast that I don’t think that being a public company is going to change that much, but there’s more administrative burden as a public company. Not everybody likes it and not everybody wants to live through that. You often have a turnover in your employees for those who don’t want to be part of a public company.
There are some people fully vested in the options that are close enough. Time for me to find my next challenge. That’s great. We live in a country where they’ll find a great challenge again and do it all again and hopefully be successful. Some people love the challenge of running a public company. For you, welcome to the club. It’s like the ultimate validation for a CFO to be a public company CFO. I say that as somebody who never achieved that. I had a handful of exits that were acquisitions, but I never did an IPO in my CFO career. I have a question. I think anybody who’s visited your website would have the same question. Have you met Simone Biles yet?
I have not.
She’s their spokesman, for those who haven’t been on the website, but some of your colleagues must have met her at some point along the way.
Certainly, in the marketing team. I don’t know who else would’ve met her, but what a great spokesperson, especially now. It’s incredibly fortuitous for us.
When I saw that, I thought this is Babe Ruth. There’s Michael Jordan, and there’s a handful of others. I’m not exactly a sports genius to know it, but she’s in that game-changing new prototype category. I don’t think any people are living now who saw Babe Ruth play but it’s cool. This gymnast is great but you should have seen Simone in the day. She was something special. She’s such a groundbreaking athlete and it’s cool to have her as your spokesperson, which leads me to the final question. I hear this rumor and I hope you’re going to dispel it. Your 10-year-old is beating you at golf. He’s crushing you. Tell me about that. Are you raising the next Tiger Woods or something like that?
There are plenty of days where it does feel like that. We’re lucky enough to be at a country club, which we joined because he was getting so into golf. We joined a country club just because it’s easier to access the greens or the tee times. At the time when he started playing golf, I was surfing, running, biking, outdoor stuff. I was not golfing. Anytime I picked up a club and hit a ball, it was not pretty.
As he started getting into it, I started doing it because it was a great time to have that father-son time and I started liking it. Now I’m doing it, but I’m not doing it to the level of my 10-year-old son who is now doing tournaments and traveling. He’s got a tournament coming up this weekend, and if he wins it, he is going to be on the golf panel. He’s taking to it. It is an exciting time and I’m learning. It’s a growth opportunity for me.
I was raised by a father who’s athletic. I’m an okay athlete, but nothing special. I don’t think I could beat him at any sport until I was in my 30s and he was in his 60s. It was because he was slowing down, not because I was getting better. That’s fantastic that your son is 10 and he’s found something he loves. Is he your only child, Chris?
No, I have a daughter as well. She is 6.
You can beat her though, I’m pretty sure for at least a few more years.
I don’t know. She’s probably going to come up pretty quickly. There are another couple of kids that my son plays with and the younger sister of one of these boys. She must be 8. In 2022, she was struggling and now, she is hitting long and straight. It’s incredible to see these kids at such an early age get exponentially better.
It’s remarkable. I watch my nephews and nieces play basketball and football and it’s not even a contest how much better they were than we were at the same age. It’s nutrition, training techniques or whatever it is. They would crush us if somehow my high school football team could go back in time or if the team could go back in time. It wouldn’t be pretty at all. Anyway, Chris, this is great. I also think your company’s probably of interest to my audience. Would you be willing to share the website?
I look forward to following the company and being a great success. When you do go public, I do expect to be on that friends and family list. Why wouldn’t I be since we just met? Anyway, Chris, this has been a lot of fun. Thanks for your time. I appreciate it.